I wish Dave Winer hadn’t brought Maryam’s personal conversations with him out into public sphere, but now that he has, what she was hurt about the most about how Dave dealt with her is that Dave didn’t react as a friend to her — it wasn’t just about what was written on his blog either. She is calm about the issue now and has written about the week of anger, but not the conversation with Dave (she hasn’t yet seen Dave’s post this morning, I wanted to write from the heart before she saw it).
When someone calls you, and is hurt, and is a friend your first impulse should be “how can I help?” When she called Dave she called as a friend, not as a blogger.
Dave reacted to her as a blogger instead of as a friend and now Dave took an emotional conversation (she was crying and VERY hurt by what had been said about her) done over phone into the public sphere.
Also, when she first called Dave he didn’t have up some of the other explanations of what had happened, nor the explanations that he had been personally attacked by this mob for quite some time, only this line: “On this one, I take the side of the mean kids, because no one else is, and I have a soft spot for people who are being attacked by a mob, no matter how pathetic they are.”
That made Maryam believe that Dave was taking sides and she didn’t care about the nuance of the civics lesson that Dave was giving her at that time. Keep in mind Maryam sees Dave as a friend (he’s been over here, eaten at the house, spent lots of time with us, etc).
Dave’s thoughts publicly are good ones — trying to calm down the mob — but the way he went about it at first did cause his friends who were dealing with a world of hurt conflict and didn’t come across as a listening ear. He told Maryam he didn’t care about her, saying that she has tons of other people who would worry about her feelings. Now he took that conversation into the public sphere, which makes it very difficult for me (I hate being between my wife and my friend in public).
I chose a different path: to take a week off to reflect what had happened and also to listen to other people’s voices and to help my friends (and family) deal.
I’m still hurt by the events, though and Maryam has learned some harsh lessons (including one today with Dave’s post — be careful about talking with friends who have blogs).
Winer writes: “You’ve got some real dork-like trolls here Scoble!”
Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to Mr. Kettle?
Don’t you know The Dave is always right?
I once read a T-shirt that read “watch out or you’ll end up in my novel” Let your Yes be Yes and no be no.
I once read a T-shirt that read “watch out or you’ll end up in my novel” Let your Yes be Yes and no be no.
“be careful about talking with friends who have blogs”
That sounds very similar to the advice you need when your friend is a songwriter. At least one of Christine Lavin’s songs has come out of a late-night IM conversation…
“be careful about talking with friends who have blogs”
That sounds very similar to the advice you need when your friend is a songwriter. At least one of Christine Lavin’s songs has come out of a late-night IM conversation…
Oops, forget I wasn’t logged in as myself there.
Oops, forget I wasn’t logged in as myself there.
“Shelly, frankly, I can’t stand women like you who look for offense in everything, not only regarding themselves but regarding other women. You are the ones who give our gender a bad name.
Calling the actions of a husband sticking up for his wife “demeaning” is 1970s feminist bullshit.”
*applause!!!*
“Shelly, frankly, I can’t stand women like you who look for offense in everything, not only regarding themselves but regarding other women. You are the ones who give our gender a bad name.
Calling the actions of a husband sticking up for his wife “demeaning” is 1970s feminist bullshit.”
*applause!!!*
If you geniuses had bothered to take a look, you’d have seen that I apologized to Robert Scoble for commenting on his interaction with his wife several comments ago.
As for 1970s feminist bullshit-is that the same bullshit that guaranteed you the right to have a say about your body, that you’re free of sexual harassment at work, that you’re entitled to equal opportunity in school and on your job?
That’s 1970s bullshit, Dawn?
Well, I know of a couple of countries that would agree with you. Perhaps you might want to consider immigrating there, and then you need never deal with bullshit like that 1970s feminist bullshit ever again.
See? Then we’d all be happy: you wouldn’t have to deal with feminist bullshit, and I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.
And I give our gender a bad name?
Right.
If you geniuses had bothered to take a look, you’d have seen that I apologized to Robert Scoble for commenting on his interaction with his wife several comments ago.
As for 1970s feminist bullshit-is that the same bullshit that guaranteed you the right to have a say about your body, that you’re free of sexual harassment at work, that you’re entitled to equal opportunity in school and on your job?
That’s 1970s bullshit, Dawn?
Well, I know of a couple of countries that would agree with you. Perhaps you might want to consider immigrating there, and then you need never deal with bullshit like that 1970s feminist bullshit ever again.
See? Then we’d all be happy: you wouldn’t have to deal with feminist bullshit, and I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.
And I give our gender a bad name?
Right.
“I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.”
Takes it for granted? Doesn’t necessarily mean someone does take it for granted because they call it feminist bullshit. When I say “feminist bullshit” I talk about the extreme crap which gets bandied around sometimes. Oh God, don’t open the door for me! I’m a woman and I can open it myself. Who gives a shit!?!? That is the sort of feminist bullshit which is incredulous. Also when people push their beliefs in to the personal space of others, like commenting about a married couple and how they conduct their lives. None of your business. All the stuff about sexual harassment at work, equality etc. is great! But then there are feminists which carry it over the line with their, yes that’s right, feminist bullshit then it gets really annoying. They talk about the great stuff that has resulted from the 70′s feminist movement, but then also bring in their extreme edge crap with it. It’s that second lot which most people hate. It’s gets annoying, like a broken record or nails down a blackboard.
Annoying crap spewed by people like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer
“I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.”
Takes it for granted? Doesn’t necessarily mean someone does take it for granted because they call it feminist bullshit. When I say “feminist bullshit” I talk about the extreme crap which gets bandied around sometimes. Oh God, don’t open the door for me! I’m a woman and I can open it myself. Who gives a shit!?!? That is the sort of feminist bullshit which is incredulous. Also when people push their beliefs in to the personal space of others, like commenting about a married couple and how they conduct their lives. None of your business. All the stuff about sexual harassment at work, equality etc. is great! But then there are feminists which carry it over the line with their, yes that’s right, feminist bullshit then it gets really annoying. They talk about the great stuff that has resulted from the 70′s feminist movement, but then also bring in their extreme edge crap with it. It’s that second lot which most people hate. It’s gets annoying, like a broken record or nails down a blackboard.
Annoying crap spewed by people like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer
Anyway, no big deal. How’d we get here? Lets get back to talking about more important stuff… like Twitter!
Anyway, no big deal. How’d we get here? Lets get back to talking about more important stuff… like Twitter!
“I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.”
Again, I suggest you get off your high horse and lose the condescending assumptions, Shelley.
Nobody gave me anything, nor guaranteed me anything, least of all a bunch of misguided women whose “hard work” is degrading males and whose “sacrifice” is millions of preborn babies.
I’m older than you and I dare say more successful than you are, and your “don’t demean my sister nor dare challenge anything I say lest I call you a harasser” trigger finger had absolutely nothing to do with it, thank you very much.
“I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.”
Again, I suggest you get off your high horse and lose the condescending assumptions, Shelley.
Nobody gave me anything, nor guaranteed me anything, least of all a bunch of misguided women whose “hard work” is degrading males and whose “sacrifice” is millions of preborn babies.
I’m older than you and I dare say more successful than you are, and your “don’t demean my sister nor dare challenge anything I say lest I call you a harasser” trigger finger had absolutely nothing to do with it, thank you very much.
Go back to Kathy Sierra case. Kathy probably gathers enough pieces to feel the danger. The trouble is What If she is Right. I would rather have Kathy protected herself screaming loud than having something tragic happening to her. Therefore I wouldn’t recommend anyone to tease her being over-reacting or attention-grabbing. Crimes happen all the times.
You know that if she hadn’t said anything, a certain class of men (the gang at Something Awful, Fark, etc.) would have blamed her for being “a dumb bitch” because she didn’t react. Because she did react, she’s “a dumb bitch” for overreacting.
It reminds me of the Rutgers basketball team fiasco. Look at all the people coming out of the woodwork (and rightly so) about Don Imus’s racial comments. How many of them are mentioning Imus’s and his director’s misogynist comments? Not many. It’s much more acceptable to hate women, to trash-talk them, than it is to hate and trash-talk African-Americans. Women just have to “deal with it”. Heck, men are often pressured in private to trash-talk women and are seen as pussy-whipped if they don’t.
Go back to Kathy Sierra case. Kathy probably gathers enough pieces to feel the danger. The trouble is What If she is Right. I would rather have Kathy protected herself screaming loud than having something tragic happening to her. Therefore I wouldn’t recommend anyone to tease her being over-reacting or attention-grabbing. Crimes happen all the times.
You know that if she hadn’t said anything, a certain class of men (the gang at Something Awful, Fark, etc.) would have blamed her for being “a dumb bitch” because she didn’t react. Because she did react, she’s “a dumb bitch” for overreacting.
It reminds me of the Rutgers basketball team fiasco. Look at all the people coming out of the woodwork (and rightly so) about Don Imus’s racial comments. How many of them are mentioning Imus’s and his director’s misogynist comments? Not many. It’s much more acceptable to hate women, to trash-talk them, than it is to hate and trash-talk African-Americans. Women just have to “deal with it”. Heck, men are often pressured in private to trash-talk women and are seen as pussy-whipped if they don’t.
>>>That’s 1970s bullshit, Dawn?
No, what’s bullshit (decade irrelevant) is you finding some sort of farreaching, phantom offensiveness in a simple act of defending one’s loved ones over a matter that had become public.
It seems some people today are so anxious for drama and conflict that they look under every rock, within every crevice, to try to find the worst way to interpret a set of words no matter their original intent. When they find it, they cry out, assuming the world must be out to get them. Somehow everyone is attempting to demean, to suppress, to “bring them down.”
It does a disservice to the real issues — mysogyny, racism, and other equally substantial and equally critical — when looks for fault, hurt, or offense, and then reacts to that phantom charge in the artificial name or spirit of that challenge.
>>>That’s 1970s bullshit, Dawn?
No, what’s bullshit (decade irrelevant) is you finding some sort of farreaching, phantom offensiveness in a simple act of defending one’s loved ones over a matter that had become public.
It seems some people today are so anxious for drama and conflict that they look under every rock, within every crevice, to try to find the worst way to interpret a set of words no matter their original intent. When they find it, they cry out, assuming the world must be out to get them. Somehow everyone is attempting to demean, to suppress, to “bring them down.”
It does a disservice to the real issues — mysogyny, racism, and other equally substantial and equally critical — when looks for fault, hurt, or offense, and then reacts to that phantom charge in the artificial name or spirit of that challenge.